6 takeaways from Ziwe’s divisive showdown with George Santos

Ziwe’s head-to-head with George Santos – which was released on YouTube last night – wasn’t really the “bombshell interview” promised by the trailer. Santos, while hardly coming across well, maintained his composure throughout – at best, you could describe it as a draw, but it was far from the humiliating comeuppance that Ziwe’s fans were anticipating. A running joke about the fact that “icon” sounds like “I con” didn’t really land, and even though there were a few awkward moments, the whole thing felt strangely chummy, with the pair rapping a Nicki Minaj song together and chatting about his sartorial choices – while funny at times, it was no Frost vs Nixon. Here are the major takeaways from the interview.

When it comes to ballroom slang – which originated in Black and Latino queer communities in the US in the 1970s and 80s – the cat is already out of the bag. Thanks to the enduring cult status of Paris Is Burning and, later, the global success of RuPaul’s Drag Race, expressions like “serving” and “werk” are now common parlance outside of their original context. Some would describe this as cultural appropriation, others as the natural progression of language, but one thing is clear: when a disgraced, hard-right Republican politician is saying “slay the house down boots” twice in the space of a 15-minute interview, there’s been a failure in the gatekeeping process. Maybe it’s too late for the original slang, but whenever new variations emerge, we all must do our part to ensure that people like George Santos never find out about it. The fact he borrows so heavily from queer Black culture is particularly egregious in light of yesterday’s revelation that he doesn’t even know James Baldwin is – Mr Santos, it’s time to turn off Drag Race and crack open a book. The library is open…

Here in the UK, we learned this the hard way after years of gently ribbing Boris Johnson, a man who rode his characterisation as an affable, bumbling buffoon straight to Number 10. It doesn’t work when Ziwe does it either: at one point she describes Santos as a “messy bitch who lives for drama”, and he looks delighted. Why wouldn’t he? This is the exact persona he’s trying to monetise. It’s like trying to discredit Nigel Farage by presenting him as a no-nonsense, down-to-earth bloke who enjoys a pint and tells it like it is.

It’s understandable, given his own position in the culture, that Santos has mistaken mockery for affection, but Gen Z voters (while unenthusiastic about Biden) are significantly less likely to vote for Trump than older generations. And let me tell you something else, Mr Santos: in the “evil but funny right-wing politician” stakes, you are no Donald Trump.

Ziwe is funny and she gets in some good jibes along the way, but she doesn’t succeed in challenging the more unpleasant aspects of Santo’s politics. When she asks him about his stance that drag queens are more harmful to children than guns, he replies that he loves drag queens but thinks they’re inappropriate for kids – a typical talking point among right-wing gay men. All you have to say in response is something like: drag takes many different forms and it’s not inherently unsuitable for any age group. But instead, Ziwe says “no-one is claiming that it is appropriate”, which invites the obvious rejoinder, “well why are there Drag Queen Story Hours?” Appearing slightly flummoxed, she replies “goodness gracious, we’re not going to get anywhere with that!” and then changes the subject. I disagree with Santos – strongly – but it’s hard not to conclude he won that round, and managed to make his position appear more reasonable than it actually is. An interrogation of his beliefs about the Middle East similarly peters out, and it feels slightly jarring to reference an ongoing genocide in an interview largely consisting of light-hearted cattiness.

So that’s why he looks so good!

I appreciate the irony of me saying this while writing an article about him, and trust that I feel profound ashamed by my own complicity. But the best way of getting one over on this guy is ignoring him, not dragging him. When Ziwe asks, “how can we make you disappear?”, Santos replies “stop inviting me to your gigs […] but you can’t, because people want the content.” It’s true that lots of people demanded this interview take place, but I think he’s overestimating how much people actually care. We’ll take the content, we’ll eat up the slop that’s handed to us, but online attention is a fickle thing. If Santos thinks that people will still be clamoring to see him in, like, a fortnight’s time, he might be in for a rude awakening. We can all do our bit to make this happen sooner rather than later: after today, I promise his name will never pass my lips ever again.